WHAT IS THE DESIRED 'FINISHED PRODUCT' of the RELIGIOUS MIND?
do you think the religious mind even thinks in those terms?
you know, that 'mind' that holds such masterfully deceitful and manipulative sway, influence and bondage over the heart and mind of the many membered Body of Christ?
are we being 'men pleasers' by tolerating and giving-in to such manipulations and deception?
yet, really ... if we are deceived and led astray, then ... is there any 'accountability' for that? is it only innocence and/or ignorance to be sucked in by such deception?
how about when we become more aware of such things and we see or perceive any such subtle deceptions - perverted, twisted and tweaked lies that result in Body members being 'bound', what are we to do with that? just 'take note' for ourselves? do we expose it for what it is? do we leave it alone, turn a blind eye, and just 'let GOD be GOD' and 'let GOD do HIS thing' - whatever that means, and just stay out of it?
these are things that grab at my heart from time to time. i don't know that there is any particular 'formula' for dealing with these issues. i don't even know when we can always trust our hearts to know that we are truly 'seeing' deception. the apostle Paul certainly seemed to know when to confront things and how in his day.
it seems that we can become like 'witch hunters' sometimes (so to speak) when it comes to dealing with deception and lies. you know, like hunting down and/or inspecting for deception/lies. it can take the place of hunting for or inspecting 'sins' in ourselves and others. very similar to the other religious bondage of 'fruit inspecting' ourselves and one another. we could be confronting each other all day long every day with 'brother, i perceive you to be trapped in a lie', or 'sister, i think you have been ensnared by deception'.
sheeeeesh ... it becomes a matter of 'pick your religious poison' - or in this case, 'pick your lie/deception'.
i suppose it is really more of the matter of simply speaking of Christ Himself and letting or allowing for everything else to fall where it may, isn't it. it is far too easy for me a lot of times to get caught up in minor details that become perceived by me as MAJOR. but then again, it was a lot of those little 'minor details' that held me in bondage for so many years. so i have a challenge in how to view all this sometimes.
chalk it all up to me just confusing myself again! 
some better perspective would certainly be appreciated and a tremendous help for my befuddled mind at this time. 
is it blood sugar? hormones? lack of good sleep? a vitamin/mineral deficiency? mental illness? 
i will re-read this later and want to delete it, i am sure. i am just 'having some moments'. they 'happen'. how about for you? can or do any of you relate?
Some very good things to consider there, Sharon dear. :)
I don't believe the minor details actually held us in bondage, rather that the bondage revealed itself in or through many details. The minor things we were caught up revolved around the fleshly perspective by which we were trained. And for us, the unraveling of those minor things were so connected to the huge life-sucking monster of the fleshly wisdom that we may have transferred too much attention upon them, as if a phrase or definition was the real problem.
Sometimes we will find ourselves dealing with others regarding many things that may have been considered minor when in fact the real issue turns out to be Christ himself. Maybe another is caught up with something that seems minor, but as you proposed, speaking of Christ and the truth in him will often reveal those things all by themselves.
Love, Jim
I have determined to know nothing among you except Christ, and him crucified!
the question comes to mind, does every-thing have to be a major 'circumcision' sized issue?
it makes me wonder ... can there be issues that may be more circumcisionary-sized issues for one person than they may be for someone else?
talking about bondage, i mean, there are ties that bind, gag and choke to death, holding on with all their might! isn't the religious mind of fleshly wisdom and legalism all about the details? isn't it the details, both subtle and not so subtle that are used to create and recreate all the varied 'systems' of deception that empower others to suck life right out of the souls of yet others? none of it nurtures or builds up the heart and mind of the Body of Christ.
" .... speaking of Christ and the truth in him will often reveal those things all by themselves." <~jim
that is so true!
i surmise you to be saying: leave the details to the details - speak Christ and trust that He will expose the deception and its details for what they are ... chains of bondage ... that which is not from Him, for He has set them free.
boy oh boy, why does my mind still want to go back to: what about the circumcision-sized issues and the little-bit-of-leaven issues and ... you know, all that stuff?
are those 'religious' questions and concerns? fleshly wisdom issues? sighhhhhh .....
Yeah I think when we are pained or under the pressure of the legal mind from others we begin to gravitate toward formulas quite naturally. It makes sense to us to match fire with fire, to respond in kind. What I mean is, we get sucked into fighting a battle with the energy and witness of the flesh and get detoured from rest in God though Christ.
Yet the Father remains faithful to make sure we recognize the Truth. This is His discipline and it is for us, not against us. Thank God for this love and Grace from Him.
There is nothing inherently 'wrong' with details, it's just that the thrust of the natural mind will FORCE you to engage details as if it were LIFE.
Remember that even IF you do not have all the details, Christ is your Life, He is your perfector of faith. Rest in that and walk free, for He has set you free.[remember the Gospel]
Love,
Adam
... about the desired finished product of the religious mind. :)
thinking back to the days of being reahhhhhlly ensnared by the religious mind ... not just the influence of others' but my own religious mind at the time ... my goals, hopes, expectations ... i can remember a few things i desired as a finished product.
* to be loved and accepted by GOD by ...
* winning HIS approval by ...
* whatever way i thought was expected of me to gain HIS approval
* then, to do my utmost to maintain that approval
* the end result being of course to be in heaven and to get rewards for my 'labor'
* however, if i could not gain and maintain, then i would suffer shame, fear and loss
(i am sure i am forgetting a lot of other things, but ... this is just to give you an idea.)
what an eye opener it was for me one evening when it was pointed out that, according to the religious mind's understanding of GOD, Jesus Christ didn't even really need to be in the picture. everything that i stated above after the asterisks, could be desperately attempted at without Jesus having ever come and accomplished what He did on the cross. if we could do any and/or all of the above, then why would He even need to be in the picture?
the religious mind that held me captive then by so many religious legalities, was challenged by the mind of GOD ... a very different Mind, indeed! the religious mind was exposed for the darkness it was by the mind of Light, Love and Liberty provided by the gospel of Jesus Christ Himself. how sweet that news was, is and always will be! :)
the religious mind that once held me in its grip so tightly (and i am sure there are residual effects i may not yet be aware of) made sure to remind me of all the how-tos to bring about the desired finished product. the how-to's were details. the details were very important. they were the means to the end, if know what i mean. there was no security, peace, life or love in any of it. it was all solely based on the efforts of man with no true lasting satisfaction. fear, guilt and shame were the foundation, the motivator, the drive and the unsatisfactory and empty reward.
before you came to know GOD and what HE desires, provides, maintains and sustains in Christ Jesus, do you remember the details in your own religious experience that held your heart and mind in captivity by all those lies? perhaps all the little lies merely supported and distracted from the main BIG lie? the big lie to me is simply that Jesus Christ is not sufficient. included in that lie is that if He is not sufficient, then you can not possibly be either, even tho' your sufficiency is completely dependent upon and inseparable from His all-sufficiency in you! it is because of that lie that there are so many details involved in the many faceted religious monster that distracts from, even while supporting, the BIG lie and imprisons the hearts and minds of the children of GOD as they walk this Earth.
from time to time a little detail will grab my attention concerning someone and i will get upset about it in my heart and caught-up in wanting to nip it right out, but ... then the focus just becomes the' little detail' and not Christ Himself. the sway for me in that is subtle, but powerful. it is the very thing that can tend to cause that 'tossing out the baby with the bath-water' syndrome.
i apologize for the lack of clarity here that i have posted, threaded or whatever the best term would be. that is what happens when i get caught in the snare of fretting over religious details or fleshly details that i may perceive others to be caught-up in. i don't want to 'war' with details. they just make me angry and frustrated. as you mentioned adam, there is rest and peace in Christ alone. everything else is ... well ... everything else. i just know that i personally want NOTHING to do any more with the religious everything elses and/or the anything elses. i have tasted and suffered the poisoned fruit of it. if others do, it is not my place to try to 'force a fix', for lack of better phrasing at the moment. as if i even could. no one could ever 'force a fix' on me. how arrogant for me to sometimes hope that maybe i can.
GOD Himself is in the revealing business. HE knows best the hows, whens, wheres and all those little and big details.
hopefully i will just leave this now, especially not really understanding it anyway, and just get on with moving on. i don't know what i was thinking when i started this thread. just in a state of confusion and frustration at the time, i guess.
please forgive my weird and confusing rantings and ramblings.
who cares about the religious mind and what it thinks, right? been there/done that. don't want anything to do with any version or flavor of it anymore. been down that road. don't want to go back. !!!!!!!
blah blah blah ... ya-da ya-da ya-da ... movin' on ...
I, for one, am not sorry you started this thread, for what has come out of it is invaluable! Thanks for taking the time to post all of this.
Love, Jim
I have determined to know nothing among you except Christ, and him crucified!
Sher, Thanks so much for posting this. You've been on my heart for a few days.
Christ in you, the hope!
while i was brushing my teeth this morning something else came to mind about the 'desired finished product' of the religious mind. sharing it with you guyz really does help me work through stuff sometimes.
james and mclady ~ thank you for your encouragement. there are things i am still confused about, but ... i don't want to dwell on them. they are soul-suckers, if you know what i mean? LOL
for now ... and for what it is worth ... this is what came to mind:
for some, the religious mind desires:
* clout/reputation amongst other like-minded religious minds; a particular version or flavor of becoming or 'being somebody' amongst the like-minded
* power and control over other religious minds - domination
* the self-satisfaction of influencing others to do as they want them to - being able to manipulate others even without any need for recognized reputation, 'title', acknowledgement, etc.
as that was all ruminating in my mind's digestive system, i was reminded about how all of it is simply the various innate drives of human nature ... that nature which was inherited from the 1st adam. it is a 'natural' thing. it is how things work in the world. it is how things work in and amongst mankind. sometimes it is a seemingly 'good thing', sometimes it is an obvious 'bad thing', sometimes it is a merely tolerable thing, and sometimes it is completely intolerable and unforgivable, short of a miracle. it is what it is, in reality, an 'empty' thing ... devoid of the Life and Light of GOD.
it is a mind that desires to be filled with whatever it desires, whatever it is drawn to, and whatever drives it ... a mind that is without GOD in the world ... a mind that is convinced it wants to be filled with its own unique-to-it version of 'god' ... a full-to-the-brim mind yet still full of unexplainable emptiness ... etc.
but GOD ... thankfully HE has most generously given us His mind in the New Creation, and as it grows and matures in us we learn more and more how the old mind has been done away with by the New. somehow, the 'tempter' baits us and sedates us into a drugged stupor of memories that want to convince us that we are still what we once were, and that we are not the New that He has made us.
sometime we find ourselves screaming, "why is that allowed!!?"
am i totally screwed up in my interpretation and/or understanding? what i understand is that we are left here in the same body even tho' we have been made 'NEW' by the Life of GOD that miraculously dwells within us, the New Creation. the body has a brain and the brain has memories. it seems to selectively spit out whatever memory it chooses to convince us of whatever lie it wants to convince us of at any particular time, situation, circumstance, etc. mainly, it is the lie that demands that we are NOT as GOD has said HE has made us! yet, His Spirit within us reminds us of that desired and needed support and encouragement that revives us when hearing the good news of Christ ... the Love, Comfort, Grace, Peace and confidence that is only found in Him. and being true to Himself in us, He delivers! :) it is such a precious and valuable reminder, isn't it? a breath of fresh air! refreshment beyond explanation!
Christ in you, the hope!